Shoulda Been Higher

My Kind of Scene uncovers the past and present of Australian music. In this episode, we discuss all the charm and quirks of the Triple J Hottest 100 annual listener poll, with the guy who literally wrote the book on it – author, comedian and podcaster, Tom W. Clarke. Check out his awesome book, Shoulda Been Higher: A Celebration of 30 Years of Triple J's Hottest 100.

Find the episode playlist on Spotify and YouTube.  Send questions or compliments to mykindofscenepod[@]gmail.com.

My Kind Of Scene acknowledges and pays respect to the past, present and future Traditional Custodians and Elders of the land many of us call Australia.

Sources

• Clarke, T.W. Shoulda Been Higher: A Celebration of 30 Years of Triple J's Hottest 100 Melbourne Books, 2023 
• The Hottest 100 Archive abc.net.au
• Wikipedia
• Clarke, T.W. Spinning Around Spotify, 2021-22

Transcript

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Intro   00:00:00

["My Kind of Pod Theme" – Cara Diaria] 

Cara

Welcome to My Kind of Scene, where we uncover the past and present of Australian music.

I'm Cara Diaria, indie musician and music nerd, bringing my unique perspective to the hits and misses, the movers and shakers, the goodness and greatness that makes the Australian music scene, My Kind of Scene.

Before we dig in, let's acknowledge and pay respect to the past, present and future Traditional Custodians and Elders of the land many of us call Australia. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners should be aware that this episode may contain the names, voices and words of people who have died.

I'm also going to add a language warning to this one, so if you've got kiddos in the car, maybe come back to it another time!

["Never Be Like You" – Flume feat. Kai]

On this episode, we're doing something a little different. Many Australian listeners would be aware that this time of year – summer – is a significant time for music lovers. It's a time when we look back at our favourite songs from the past year, and cast our votes in Triple J's Hottest 100 annual music poll. And then, on a summer Saturday, listen as the songs are counted down, from a hundred to one.

And it's not just Australian music, although this features heavily, especially in recent polls. The songs can be from anywhere in the world, as long as they've had airplay on Triple J radio.

To commemorate 30 years of this Aussie tradition, I'm chatting with perhaps the world's leading expert on the Hottest 100 – writer, comedian and music lover, Tom W. Clark. You might have seen Tom performing stand-up comedy around Australia, including at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, or heard him on his music podcast, Spinning Around. But today we're discussing his new book – Shoulda Been Higher: A Celebration of 30 Years of Triple J's Hottest 100.

The book is definitive account as well as a really fun retrospective, that goes through the 30-year history of the Hottest 100, which has been called Australia's greatest musical democracy. Tom really dives in deep to each and every countdown: the winners, the losers, and the somewhere-in-betweens.

It's a chronicle and a love letter. He takes data-driven approach, but also pours in a lot of heart and soul. A large amount of the book was written while Tom was driving around Australia in a camper van with his wife and kiddo, performing standup across the country. 

So, to learn more about the book, and about the Hottest 100 in general, let's dive into my conversation with Tom W. Clark!

Interview begins   00:03:14

Cara

I'll start with saying congratulations on this huge accomplishment and it's a great read and, and a lengthy, uh, you know, in-depth tome as well. I was expecting something quite light and brief and you know, it's pretty deep, so well done. It's a huge achievement. 

Tom
Thank you very much. It's awesome to have it out there. I agree that it is not brief, but it is, I hope, uh, a fairly light-hearted read at the very least, but, um, yeah, lengthy is a fair, if depressing way to describe it, uh…

Cara
Don't worry, you're speaking to someone who has managed to do three-part podcast episodes because she can't possibly fit everything she wants to say into one episode. So, I feel you. Editing is not my, uh, favorite job. 

Yeah, that's, um, self-editing. It's a tough one. It is. It is. We're just too, just too brilliant.

Cara
Oh, that's it. Too much good stuff to say. So, for the uninitiated, and we do have some overseas listeners, and I'm sure they've heard me bang on a little bit about the Hottest 100 over various episodes, but do you want to fill people in on what the Hottest 100 is, and maybe a little bit about what it means to you?

Tom
Sure. So, for the uninitiated, the Hottest 100 is, in a nutshell, a vote by listeners of our national youth broadcaster, Triple J. It is a vote of listeners' 100 favorite songs of the year. So, everyone votes for their 10 favorite songs, which is then tabulated up. And we get 100 songs, from 100 to 1, every year in late January. It's played on the radio. And, um, it's become, over the course of the last three decades, a bit of a cultural institution here in Australia. 

Cara
Yeah, absolutely. And I've certainly had my fair share of Hottest 100 listening parties with various groups of friends. You know, typically sitting in the sun drinking way too much alcohol and getting way too angry about what's in the top five and what's not. 

Tom

I mean, the debate is all part of it. It's kind of what inspired the book to begin with is, is shouting about the things that are too high; the things that didn't get high enough, you know, as you said, you're usually a bit sauced by the top 10, so it's never good enough, um, but you dance anyway. 

Cara

Absolutely. And that was going to be one of my questions, you know, of the, the breadth of Australian music history and trivia, and you know, it's obviously an area of passion for you. What made you decide to pick this topic in particular to write about? 

Tom

I mean, I do love Australian music, I love Australian music, going back to the Easybeats, but, um, the Hottest 100 as a, as an event has always held such a special place in my heart. And, you know, I've been listening since I was probably 10 or 11, but I feel like I've been actively engaged in it for basically that entire time. Like it grabbed me straight away, I loved the music, I loved the concept, I loved the debate part of it. And you know, so much of it felt like, you know, turning music into a sport, which I really enjoyed. It's got that, that real community factor, it's got that passion. It just brings a lot of the great things that I love about sport to indie music, which is another thing that I love. So it's, it's always been, uh, something of that was a sweet spot for me, and then as it became more and more of a party, uh, it just became too indelible to ignore. 

Favorite question to research   00:06:45

Cara

Absolutely. And so, your book explores questions like how Australia's music has changed and evolved over the past 30 years; who owned the Hottest 100 without winning? Surprisingly there's quite a few bands who are in that category. What's the deal with all the novelty songs? And which is the greatest Hottest 100? 
So which question did you most enjoy researching or forming an opinion on? 

Tom
I mean the funnest chapter to write was definitely the "what if?" chapter, which is the silliest chapter in the book for sure, um, but it required no research because I made it all up. So, uh, I think the most fun to research was probably the first chapter actually, the chapter about the genres and how it's shifted over time, because I had a general idea of how that was gonna go, you know, you look back and you know that the most popular bands in the early '90s were Pearl Jam and Nirvana, ["About a Girl" – Nirvana] and you know that the most popular artists now are Flume and Kendrick Lamar [ "Humble" – Kendrick Lamar]. So, you know how it's gonna go in general. But it was really interesting to see, like, firstly, just how rock heavy those first kind of 10 to 15 even countdowns were, um, you know.

So much grunge, a lot of hard rock and heavy metal, um, a lot of like nu metal, you know, Korn and Limp Bizkit and Rage Against the Machine ["Killing in the Name" – Rage Against the Machine]. And then kind of transitioning more into that Australian rock, you know, that kind of golden era of Powderfinger and Something for Kate and Jebediah ["Harpoon" - Jebediah]. So, there was just, there was just so much rock in that period and the rest of it is so weird. You know, like there's no golden age hip hop, it's all weird novelty songs and Ace of Base ["All That She Wants" – Ace of Base] and oh, who was married to Lance Armstrong, uh, Sheryl Crow ["All I Wanna Do" – Sheryl Crow] made it, uh, once, one year. Um, you know, it's a real weird mix and then slowly over time you start to see pop music coming into it a bit more and you know, hip hop definitely coming through a lot more.

So that was a really interesting one to just like watch that change and to see beyond your sort of general assumptions of how it's going to go to really dig into it and see. Like what we were thinking. 

["My Number" – Foals] 

Why so data driven?   00:10:19

Cara
Yeah, absolutely. And as a fellow music nerd, I got super excited in that first chapter when, you know, I was about three or four pages in and there's this amazing graph that you have that really visually represents that evolution and shows you know, how different genres have ebbed in and out of style or fashion, um, or favor in the voting of the Hottest 100. And that doesn't stop there, you know, there's tables and graphs and charts and analyses all the way throughout the book. I was curious, do you have a kind of data analysis background or what, what made you take such a data driven approach? 

Tom
Definitely not. I'm not a numbers guy at all. I enjoy statistics as facts, you know, like I find the trivia element of statistics very fun. I like to know, you know, who's done a certain thing a number of times and who has the record for [insert thing here], like a very sports-based approach to statistics.

Um, but numbers do not come naturally to me. So, it was more that the numbers felt like a fun way to analyze a lot of it, to do the sort of genre breakdown to look at who has really kind of dominated over time, based on numbers rather than just vibes and there's certainly a lot of vibes in the book and there are a lot of jokes. But the numbers kind of helped guide it and give me a bit more structure to it. And as I started to put that structure around it, that's when I was like, "oh, this isn't just my random thoughts, this is a book," and that was helpful. 

Cara
So yeah, you definitely make an incredible number of connections and parallels. Um, some examples that I just noted down here: the similarity of impact between Denzel Curry's version of Rage Against the Machine's "Bulls on Parade," ["Bulls on Parade" – Denzel Curry] and then Regina Spektor's version of John Lennon's "Real Love." ["Real Love" – Regina Spektor] I mean, they're not two things that most people would put together in their brains, and you're like, hey, these have a similar impact and effect in the context of this countdown. Or illustrating the lineage from Itch-E and Scratch-E ["Sweetness & Light" – Itch-E and Scratch-E], to The Avalanches ["Since I Left You" – The Avalanches], to The Presets ["Talk Like That" – The Presets] and PNAU ["Embrace {Ft. Ladyhawke}" - PNAU] , to Flume ["Say Nothing" – Flume {feat. MAY-A] and Peking Duk ["High {Ft. Nicole Millar}" – Peking Duk]. I'm imagining that your living room now just looks like one of those Hollywood detective walls with the red string going between all the different evidence and suspects. Um, is that kind of what happened? How did you pull all those parallels together? 

Tom
Uh, that's just how my brain looks all the time. Um, unfortunately, I think my child would destroy any attempt at making, uh, a conspiracy board. I mean, he'd probably join in and then he'd wreck it.  I think that's part of, part of where the book came from originally was that I just had to kind of word-vomit out a lot of these thoughts and connections and, um, you know, it's something that I did a bit in my podcast, which I had for a while.

But this was just a way to put it all down on paper and, you know, making those connections is a really fun way of looking at Australian music in particular, I think, but remembering that everything comes from something and that stuff that we often forget was important turned out to be much more important than you remember.

Cara

So true, yeah. And I think that the family tree, the Hottest 100 family tree that you built is particularly impressive. The way we have all the different branches through every genre, going from those original pioneers, or you know, the initial artists that were voted in in a certain genre, and then branching out to who we're seeing getting a lot of votes today.

That must have taken a lot of work to, to build that and to decide, um, you know, where each of the lines went. But yeah I really enjoyed seeing that come together. 

Tom

Ah it did take a while to put together, though, to be honest, I think it was mostly just trying to put it together on Word that was, uh, the biggest issue there's probably like 150 text boxes on that page, uh, before it actually became, you know, a nice proper version for the book.  But the actual connections part of it, um, I mean, yeah, it did, it did take a while to kind of think about it, but it was just more.

It was more just having the time to let all of that spiral out, to be like, okay, well who was important early on, and then let's see where it went and then, you know, I guess conversely to be like, okay, well, someone like Doja Cat ["Kiss Me More {Ft SZA}" – Doja Cat] is really dominating now, where did that come from, or did she come out of nowhere?

And no one comes out of nowhere, so then you get to sort of work it back and so yeah, it was, um, it was a process, but that was, that was a fun thing to put together. 

Advice for aspiring Hottest 100 artists   00:17:11

Cara

Absolutely. Okay. So, after all the research and the data crunching that you've done, what advice do you have for any musicians listening out there who think, "okay, one day I want to get into the Hottest 100?" Is there any way to kind of guarantee or increase your chances or is it random? 

Tom

Okay, here's a shortcut: if you follow the Mashd N Kutcher ["Get on the Beers" – Mashd N Kutcher] route of sort of remixing something that already is a big deal within pop culture and society, that's a decently good way to get yourself into the Hottest 100; that has been a fairly successful route for the whole time. You know, starting with Pauline Pantsdown in the mid-nineties and coming all the way through to "Get on the Beers." So that's, that's one easy, uh, trick. It's not easy. I couldn't possibly do it, but someone could and you could do it. 

Um, otherwise, I mean, I'm not sure that there is much rhyme and reason to it. I mean, there are certainly bands that appeal very much, you know, there is a certain style of easy-listening, Australian indie rock that will always be appealing because the key in the Hottest 100 is to be everyone's sixth or seventh favourite song. So, if you are a Powderfinger ["My Happiness" – Powderfinger] or an Alex Lloyd ["Amazing" – Alex Lloyd] or a Spacey Jane ["Booster Seat" – Spacey Jane] or a Lime Cordiale ["Robbery" – Lime Cordiale], there's a decent chance that you appeal to an enormous group of Australians.

So that's probably the most popular, subset across the entire countdown, is that sort of, very specific, summery guitars and drums, nice, even tempered male voice. Um, yeah, "My Happiness" times a hundred. That's kind of what, you know, that's the, that's the niche, so. 

Cara

It's easy then. Yeah. Just write "My Happiness."

Tom
Just be Spacey Jane. Exactly. Yeah. It's way easy. 

Covers and novelty songs set Hottest 100 apart   00:20:47

["Do I Wanna Know" – CHVRCHES] 

Cara
Now you've got a chapter devoted to cover songs. Do you think that Triple J's "Like A Version" segment is one of the things that makes the Hottest 100 so unique compared with other countdowns and polls across the world? 

Tom
I think it definitely is now and it probably has been for a while.

But, I mean, cover songs have been making the countdown since the start, but definitely "Like A Version" is something I think people hold pretty dear and I think it's become increasingly popular Since the videos started going up on YouTube and being shared around on social media So I do think it has a special place for people I've never been someone who really voted for covers all that often – it takes a pretty special one to crack my top 10 – but I also know some people who would, who would happily put five in if they liked them enough.

I think it's, it's one of those things that people are listening to it every week and now that they're on Spotify, people are listening to them all the time. Which I think is a good thing because they're, they're awesome. And it's a great way for artists who are on the cusp to get in front of a lot more people because there'll be people who aren't necessarily huge Denzel Curry fans who listen to Like a Version every week, and who got blown away by this incredible performer who just had this electricity. 

Cara
Absolutely. I think one of the other things, and you, you do have a chapter devoted to this in your book that sets the Hottest 100 apart perhaps a little bit from other polls is the novelty song factor. I think they perhaps tend to be a bit over-represented in the annual poll; do you put this down to the fact that it's a primarily 18-to-24 year old voting audience or is it to do with that Triple J allows, um, you know, swear words on the radio? Maybe it's a combination of these, but yeah, curious on, on what you think has led to novelty songs being so overly represented. 

Tom
It is bizarre. I always wanted to do a chapter on the novelty songs because you know, almost, almost exclusively because "Asshole" won the first Hottest 100, which just remains the most inexplicable fact about the Hottest 100.

["Asshole" – Denis Leary]

It's still just crazy, and it will never make any sense, and it will always be that's the first one. And so, I wanted to do this chapter, I wanted to think about it a bit more. You know, I knew that Bloodhound Gang had made the top ten one year, I knew that The Offspring ["Pretty Fly (For a White Guy)" – The Offspring] had won, and I sort of was like, there's something there.

And then the more you delve in, the more you realize that There's just so many, you know, there's, there's a novelty song in the top 10 of the first, I think, 10 to 12 countdowns, and then they're just scattered everywhere. Um, and you know, throughout the nineties, it was all this kind of stoner rock, very weed-forward kind of stuff, as well as like TISM, just like being chaos units ["(He'll Never Be An) Ol' Man River" – TISM].

And then sort of now it's, it's more, I guess, almost parodies of pub rock, like The Chats ["Pub Feed" – The Chats] kind of thing. And then kind of the Tom Cardy, just again, absolute chaos, kind of thing ["Mixed Messages" – Tom Cardy]. 

As to where it's come from, I would imagine it is the youth element, but more to the point, I actually think it's just having the freedom to choose.

You know, I was speaking to someone who, who kind of compared it to the donkey vote idea, which is a very Australian concept. Oh, well, if we're going to have to vote, then we're going to vote for someone stupid. But I think the idea that you can choose and just insert your own chaos into something, it's kind of something that, that young people don't get to wield very often.

And so, you know, It's, it's funny. It's funny to throw in something that just makes you laugh and you can, you know, you don't have to take it seriously, it's not the ARIAs. And so I think that's where it's probably come from. It's just people having the freedom to say, this is what I like, so I'm going to put it in. And then it, it always does well. 

Cara
It does. It's funny to have The Wiggles at number one. 

Tom

It is.

Cara

Who didn't have a giggle about that? ["Elephant" – The Wiggles] So is there any, I mean, your, your opinion of "Asshole" is not hidden in the book. Are there any novelty songs that you think did deserve to be up you know, voted in the top 10, let's say, or that maybe you thought would, but didn't? 

Tom

Um, I mean, you know, deserve is an interesting concept. Um, look, I think it's funny that "The Bad Touch" by Bloodhound Gang ["The Bad Touch" – Bloodhound Gang] made the top ten in 1999. I think that's a funny song. You know, it hasn't aged well, but it wasn't great at the time. The fact that "Nookie" by Limp Bizkit ["Nookie" – Limp Bizkit] also made the top ten that year isn't brilliant, but, you know Chumbawamba ["Tubthumping" - Chumbawamba] came third one year, that's a funny song too. It's played to death, but it's pretty funny. 

You know, Macklemore won ["Thrift Shop {ft. Wanz}" – Macklemore & Ryan Lewis]. I think that in and of itself is funny. I wish that Macklemore hadn't won the Hottest 100 and been the first hip hop song to win the Hottest 100, but the concept is funny. And as a song, when you remove some of that context, is I think objectively pretty funny too.

So, it just depends on your, ability to enjoy a song that is a joke. The Tom Cardy song ["H.Y.C.Y.Bh" – Tom Cardy]  that came 12th – "Have You Checked Your Butthole?" – hilarious. Still makes me laugh every single time. So funny. Um, I didn't vote for it. I didn't know it was eligible, but when it came on, on that countdown, I laughed my ass off and I still do, every time I hear it. Some songs are just super funny! And, and there's no other place where they get any level of cred, really. So that's, that's kind of the beauty of the Hottest 100, is that we can say, hey, this funny song is just as important as "These Days" by Powderfinger. 

Cara

It's true, yeah, they're maybe not charting in the ARIAs, but they're getting a spot in the Hottest 100. And I guess as a comedian, that's gonna, you know, speak to your heart as well. It combines all your passions. 

Tom

It does, yeah! And like, funny music isn't... uh, you know, I say it in the book about "Asshole," you know, "Asshole" is not a bad winner because it's a novelty song. "Asshole" is a bad winner because it's not funny. It's mean. And it's performed poorly. You know, he's not a good singer, but he's also not a good comedian. How it ended up number one is, is insane.

Diversity in the countdown (or lack thereof)   00:32:23

Cara
So, unlike the poll itself, especially in earlier years, your book does a really good job of representing and showing a lot of respect to diverse artists. So, you pay dues to all the trailblazing women like Missy Higgins ["Scar" – Missy Higgins], Florence + the Machine ["Dog Days Are Over" – Florence + the Machine], Billie Eilish ["Bad Guy" – Billie Eilish], as well as calling out the inequities in representation. For example, you know, genres like hip hop ["Nosebleed Section" – Hilltop Hoods] that were very underrepresented early on and artists of color ["Final Form" – Sampa the Great]. Was this a conscious choice as you developed the book to have that kind of inclusive approach and, and right some of the past wrongs of the Hottest 100 system? 

Tom
Definitely. Yeah, it definitely was intentional because, I mean, the first half of the Hottest 100, really, of the, of the history of the Hottest 100 is, is a lot of white dudes and a lot of white dude rock, right?

It's, it's very, um, Jet-centric, as it were. Um, and so, I think the best thing You know, I talk to a lot of people, particularly since the book came out, who say, ah, the Hottest 100 was so much better back in the day. And, I don't doubt that there was some great music in the Hottest 100 of the 90s, but I just think the Hottest 100 is so much more interesting now.

You can say what you want about pop music and your level of interest in it, but the fact is, artists like Billie Eilish and Doja Cat are fascinating, and the music they put out is, trailblazing and really interesting, and it's great to dance to, but it's also, like, it's great to, to think about and break down, and they express things in a really interesting way.

And the more that that, that more diversity has come into the Hottest 100, I only think it's made it better. You know, I, I love hearing Baker Boy ["Marryuna {Ft. Yirrmal}" – Baker Boy] and A.B. Original sitting next to Spacey Jane and Lime Cordiale. Like that's, it's just so much better. 

I love Missy Higgins. ["The Sound of White" – Missy Higgins] I wanted to write about Missy Higgins, but you know, it, it's quite striking, the fact that when her record came out, it was such a big deal in the history of the countdown, you know, the countdown had been going for over 10 years and she was the first solo woman to finish in the top three. The Cranberries won in 94, but then there kind of was nothing from a, from a female perspective for a long time.

So, I did want to kind of call that out a bit. I'm a big fan of some of the music from the '90s, and I think some of those Hottest 100s in the '90s are brilliant and, and that's, you know, reflected in the rankings that I, that I do in the countdown, but a lot of people have a very rose-colored glasses view of the start of the countdown. It was almost impossible not to shine a light on that as you kind of go through it and analyze it in the level of detail that I did. 

Cara

Absolutely! And you noticed, and spoke to, the fact that the early years of the Hottest 100 were pretty light on for Australian artists even as well. Why do you think that representation of Australian acts in the countdown has improved over the years? 

Tom

Um, because there's… it's on the radio more. In the early nineties, there really wasn't much way to, to get ahead of the record labels, right?

Record labels ruled what was popular and what wasn't. And so, when grunge was popular, everything was grunge or grunge adjacent. So, it's Nirvana, and it's Pearl Jam, and it's the Smashing Pumpkins, ["Bullet with Butterfly Wings" – Smashing Pumpkins] and it's Hole. And that's what's getting played everywhere, all over the world. Every western country. Um, that's, that's what's getting played. 

And then, you know, Britpop comes along and there's a lot of Oasis ["Wonderwall" - Oasis] and a lot of Pulp and Blur. Mushroom Records was probably a big part of it. There's this massive push to sign Australian artists and silverchair ["Tomorrow" – silverchair] obviously does really well and they go to America, and all of a sudden, Australian rock bands matter. And so, from '94, I think, "Tomorrow" came out in '94, " Tomorrow" does well, silverchair goes overseas, gets play on American radio stations, and suddenly, there's this rush in Australia to sign indie rock bands. And so, it all kind of changes overnight, quite quickly, you know?

Something for Kate ["Monsters" – Something For Kate] gets snapped up, and Jebediah, and then Powderfinger, and then we have kind of the Jets and the Vines ["Get Free" – The Vines] and those sort of bands coming through and it explodes after that. 

Cara

Yeah, and that was beautifully reflected in real time in my, in my life and my Hottest 100 listening history. I think I was around 17, 18 when "Buy Me a Pony" ["Buy Me a Pony" – Spiderbait] won the Hottest 100, and that was the first Australian act to win. And that was, I think that was '96. So only a couple of years after silverchair blowing up and the big rush to sign artists, you know, it really starts paying off on the airwaves and, and in the Hottest 100 countdown.

Cara
So yeah, it, it did change things. So that little band of three teenagers. 

Tom

Yeah. I mean, when they wrote "Tomorrow" and it fully changed Australian music and its place in the world. It's crazy. 

Ranking the countdowns   00:43:21

Cara

Now you spend three chapters rigorously ranking the 30 countdowns against each other. And again, the data brain and the the analyst in me just loves this type of you know, meticulousness that, that you created a ranking system and, and a scoring system.

["Heat Waves" – Glass Animals] 

So, you've ranked them from worst to best. It's exactly the type of thing I would try to do probably across three episodes of the podcast, which would end up being six, then it would take a whole year. So, no spoilers here – I don't want to ruin it for those who are going to read the book – but how did you kind of decide on that scoring system and the factors that you would take into account when ranking which countdowns were the best and the worst over the years? 

Tom

Yeah, the system took a little while to develop. I mean, early, early draft of the book, I was just going to rank the winning songs. But I felt like that had been done to death on the internet and it didn't really interest me. As soon as I started doing it, I was like, nah, this isn't much. That was just going to be one chapter. I was just going to do that. 

And then I was like, oh, well, why don't I… why don't I really see, let's flesh this out and see what it can become. Um, and I just sort of started thinking about, I mean, it was a question at the, at the heart of the book that I then kind of tried to flesh out a bit, which was what makes a good Hottest 100, and so after that, the scoring system kind of started to come together. 

So, you know, winning song, I think is an important part. That's the thing we always think about when we think about which year you know, the countdown is going to be, and then after that, it was kind of a question of, okay, well, what do I like in the Hottest 100 and what do I think? 

I spoke to friends and I spoke to my wife and, you know, what do we like in the Hottest 100? And it's like, well, it has to be fun. The music has to be good. As far as I'm concerned, the music has to be Like, there has to be some level of genre diversity because that's what makes a Hottest 100 interesting and then there's a, there's a score in there called "legacy," which was an idea that I had based on some of the all-time countdowns that they have, which was, well, what are the songs from each countdown that are enduring in listeners' minds?

["Take Me Out" – Franz Ferdinand]

Because you can look at a Hottest 100 and go, "oh, well [insert song here] is still very popular today," but I was like, well, there are, there are countdowns that Triple J listeners have done that have re-included those songs. So, I came up with the legacy score based on, yeah, how well a Hottest 100 has re-performed in those all-time countdowns – which, you know, disadvantages some of the 2020s countdowns that haven't had that opportunity – but still it was an interesting concept at the start and then the book took way longer to publish than I thought so... yeah, whatever! 

So that's how the scoring system kind of came together, and then after that I I'd kind of committed myself to this enormous numbers process which included assigning a score of one to five, across all 3,000 songs that ever made it, which was a process, but it was COVID, so I had time.

Cara

And then once you applied all of that kind of, math-based approach to it, did it ring true to you when you kind of looked at how it shook out and what the results were? Were you like, "Yeah, this is right! This was the best Hottest 100 or this was the worst!" 

Tom

Number one surprised me. I was surprised by what came first. There were some that I was, you know, certain would do, would do well, that felt like, you know, that were songs that were still beloved, that were winning songs, that I knew were bangers but there were some countdowns that I thought would do really well, that I think of as the best ones, that just like fell apart in one category, and so they just fell off, you know, they fall down to the bottom of the top ten or even further.

2012 is a great example. ["Breezeblocks" – Alt-J] I think song for song, one of the best Hottest 100s there are, but the winning song sucks. So, uh, so it, you know, it came wherever it came, 15, 16, somewhere in the middle. Um, so the scoring system, you know, it's not flawless, but it was, it threw up a bunch of surprises where I was like, okay, well, you know, the numbers are the numbers. This is the system you assigned yourself! 

Cara
I love it. 

Tom

Someone else can write a different one.

Cara

One day you can just kind of do a revisionist version where it's all gut and heart. 

Tom

Yeah! 

["Pod Theme 2" – Cara Diaria]

Tom
I'm Tom W. Clark. I'm a writer and comedian, and the author of Shoulda Been Higher: A Celebration of 30 Years of Triple J's Hottest 100. 

"What if?" scenarios   00:49:52

Cara

So, you have a chapter – and you referred to this earlier – on "what ifs." So, kind of imagining scenarios that might've happened, you know, fantasies about: if this had happened in the Hottest 100. So, one example was, you know, "What if Taylor Swift hadn't been banned from the Hottest 100?", or, "What if The Avalanches hadn't taken a 15-year hiatus?" 

So which fantasy scenarios did you have the most fun imagining? And I'm curious, were there any that didn't quite make it into the book? 

Tom

Uh, I don't know that there were any that didn't make it in. I mean, there would have been ideas that I had that I just didn't even write down because they were stupid, um, which I don't often do. I mean, I am a stand-up comedian. I write down pretty much every stupid idea because content doesn't grow on trees, but I don't know that there were any that missed out entirely.

I think the most fun one and probably the one that sort of sparked the idea was the Violent Soho one. ["Like Soda" – Violent Soho] Just because I, I still think, I mean, we've talked about, you know, Australians just being willing to laugh at music and take it way too seriously to the point that it's a joke. I love the fact that someone started, uh, an online campaign to try to get, "Like Soda" to be the national anthem, that's so stupid and funny.

Um, and it's a great song, but, um, the idea for me of it, being played at the Olympics was just this visual that I couldn't get rid of. And so I wrote it down and then it must've been around the time of the gay marriage plebiscite or just after, you know, which was just such a horrible time. It always looks just terrible for our country when we have these you know, disputes over human rights in public, but it was such a, it was such a horrible time. And so I thought, well, okay, timeline wise, if we had put the Violent Soho thing to a vote, and it had won, that would have been pretty embarrassing for the government, and then maybe they wouldn't do it again.

And so I was like, okay, well that's real, that's funny, the idea that we could vote in "Like Soda" as a national anthem, and then not have to go through the gay marriage plebiscite and just pass it in parliament like we should have. That was a fun world to imagine. And so the chapter kind of came from that.

Cara

That's great. I love it. And it's, it's inspired my thinking as well. I think I don't do a lot of those kind of, "what if?" scenarios, and thinking about how music might change the world. Just go off on a little, little daydream about what might have happened if Taylor Swift had been able to be in the Hottest 100. Would that have changed the course of history forever? Possibly. Who knows? 

Tom

Certainly possible. 

The great debate   00:53:24

["Talk is Cheap" – Chet Faker]

Cara

So, although Shoulda Been Higher is a very, as I said, you know, lengthy kind of dense tome, it is also great to just dip in and out of, and I can imagine, you know, people doing that – just pick it up every now and then read a chapter or, you know, a small section. And even pulling it out at barbecues or dinner parties and debating over those ultimate Hottest 100 choices that you made.

So yeah, I think you alluded to this earlier, but I was curious if these lists were born out of many hot debates with your friends, family whoever was that kind of one of the genesis points of this book to begin with. Or, was it kind of the opposite – the beauty of this is you got to have your say and you didn't have to debate or enter into any correspondence with anyone? 

Tom

Oh no, I was, mentally debating with strangers the entire time I was writing the book. I felt like I had to justify everything. And my wife, who edited a lot of the book to begin with, like, she would go through and be like, "I get it! I agree with you. You need to cut four of these sentences, like, no one is arguing with you. This is a book!" 

So I was, yeah, I was probably over-justifying. I mean, I wanted to justify it because part of writing it is, is that's part of the interest, but no, the debate was always the… it had to be at the center of it, because otherwise it would have just been a history which I didn't want to write. You know, I wanted to look at it from different angles and I wanted to make some calls. So. You know, it is written in a way where you should be able to pick it up and put it down. The chapters, you know, they don't have to be read in order. You don't even have to read the whole chapter to get the idea, or to pick up on a page that has a joke that you like or an opinion that you hate. So definitely, the idea was to capture that spirit of, contention that comes with every Hottest 100. You know, as you're sitting on the beach. Yelling at your friend over an esky as to why the song they love sucks.

So that was always supposed to be the core of the book, I think, in a lot of ways. Because that's I think it's part of why the Hottest 100 is what it is and why it's so popular is because fun to take stuff that doesn't matter very much, very seriously. 

Cara

Absolutely! And music can be kind of passive, you know, it's on in the background. It's something you maybe you're dancing to it and paying more attention at a gig or something, but it's not something really that inspires that much active verbal participation, I guess. So, this is, it's a conversation piece and a way to really have those discussions and debates that so many people have over sports all day, every day. Why not have it about music, especially if we're music nerds like us who feel passionately about it. Let's go! 

["Now I Can Talk" – Two Door Cinema Club]

Tom

A hundred percent! And, you know, I said it at the start. I think that the way that the Hottest 100 kind of brings that, that passion of sport to a different arena and allows, you know, people who maybe don't get that passion from sport, they can still get that feeling in a different way. And you know, my wife is absolutely an example of that, right? She could not give a shit about sport, but she gets to feel that on the Hottest 100 day. You get to feel that intense passion about something that doesn't mean that much. And that's like, that's a great thing to get to experience! 

Cara

Absolutely! 

The almost-rans   00:58:13
Cara
Coming back to the top tens in the final chapter, and so for those who obviously haven't read the book yet, there's a list of a whole lot of different top tens – so "Top ten songs that never made the Hottest 100," things like that.

So yeah, I was really shocked to read those multiple lists of the top 10 songs that didn't make the Hottest 100 countdown – and I am going to spoil this just a little but songs like "Everlong" ["Everlong" – The Foo Fighters] by the Foo Fighters, "Back to Black" – Amy Winehouse, "99 Problems" by Jay-Z, "Maps" by Yeah Yeah Yeahs, "New Slang" by The Shins... I mean, I can keep going. Do you have a theory on what happened with songs like this? How did they fall through the cracks? 

Tom
I mean, some of them are, some of them are shocks when you look at where they came, like when they were coming in the history of music, so like, "Maps" by the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, ["Maps" – Yeah Yeah Yeahs]  that doesn't make sense because it's exactly the kind of music that we were voting in to the Hottest 100 in the early-to-mid 2000s, you know? The Yeah Yeah Yeahs are just as important to that era as The Strokes or Franz Ferdinand, but "Maps" just, just didn't make it. And then you know, same with "Don't Look Back in Anger" by Oasis ["Don't Look Back in Anger" – Oasis] didn't make it in the same year that "Wonderwall" did. Like won. I don't know what happened with some of those.

And then there are others where you're like, "Well, we just weren't there yet." So, that's definitely the case with some of the hip hop ones, you know, like "Juicy" by The Notorious B. I. G. ["Juicy" – The Notorious B. I. G.] came out in 1994. We weren't voting for hip hop at that time and "99 Problems" by Jay-Z ["99 Problems" by Jay-Z] is a little bit more surprising, but again, by the early 2000s, we still weren't quite there, and I mean, really, for another, like, five or six years. So, those ones are maybe less surprising. 

I'm not really sure how "Everlong" missed out. Like, the Foo Fighters have been voted into the Hottest 100 so many times. And, and a live version of "Everlong" did make it, like, ten years after Everlong came out. 

So, I don't know, I think I'm trying to remember, like, if "Everlong" is one of those songs, and I think it might be, that actually got a lot more popular after it was released, but yeah, I mean, there are some that just make no sense, um, and then there are some where you go, well, all right, I guess, like... 

Cara
Yeah. We just weren't, on that wavelength at that time. 

Tom
Hmm. 

Are the winners nobody's favourite?   01:02:46

Cara

You alluded to this a little bit earlier what do you think about the fact that the poll doesn't include ranked voting? So, we just vote for 10 songs and each of them is weighted the same, so your 10th favourite song gets as many points as your first favourite. Do you think that results in the overall winner maybe sometimes being nobody's favourite song? 

Tom
I think it always results in that. 

Cara
Hmm, interesting. 

Tom

I've always said, I said this, you know, a long time before I wrote the book because it's that people always get upset about the winning song. And I remember being in high school saying this the winner of the Hottest 100 is everyone's sixth favorite song. Because of that, lack of ranked voting, everyone has, you know, a song that they liked, or that they think is going to make the top 10 and so they throw it in as well. And I don't really understand that, but that is something that people do. 

So, I think that that is fine, but I don't think it leads to a great level of satisfaction. But I mean, the, alternative would be the winner becomes much more polarizing. Whereas right now I think, and, and typically the winning song is actually never that controversial. Or rarely. People kind of are resigned to it. And so, you know, there's two or three songs that might win and you know, like, I mean, The Wiggles ["Elephant" – The Wiggles] was controversial, that shocked people. But again, you know, The Wiggles won because it was everyone's 7th or 8th favorite song that year. Like, people really enjoyed it and they put it in their top 10. You know, it was COVID; people needed a nice warm hug from The Wiggles. And you know, I think if it had been ranked, then it wouldn't have won. That's one, I would say, would not have won if there was a ranked system. Yeah, I think The Kid LAROI probably would have won. 

But, for the most part, it's not that controversial because everyone included " Somebody That I Used to Know" in their top ten, everyone included "Wonderwall" in their top ten, and you look back on those songs and like, "These Days", and you go, "Okay, oh, you know, I get it." So I think if it was, if it was ranked, we would probably get a clearer idea of people's favourite song, but I think it would be more controversial as well. Which might be more fun. 

Cara

Okay, Triple J, are you listening? 

Spinning Around podcast   01:05:31

So Tom, you also have a great podcast, Spinning Around: 100 Songs That Shaped the Australian Sound, and I highly recommend anyone who enjoys My Kind of Scene, check this out. Each episode is a deep dive into one song of Australian music history, and although your podcast is currently on hiatus, there's 25 excellent episodes to enjoy, so plenty of content there! And it's everything from "You Should Be Dancing" by the Bee Gees, ["You Should Be Dancing" – Bee Gees] to "The Nosebleed Section" by the Hilltop Hoods, ["The Nosebleed Section" – Hilltop Hoods] to "Boys in Town" by Divinyls ["Boys in Town" by Divinyls].

You know, it's pretty diverse across decades, genres. So yeah, I'm curious what inspired you – and obviously you're very passionate about music – but you know, to begin telling the stories of Australian music in that way. 

Tom

So, I mean, that was another COVID project. But it was a very similar thing to, what you pointed out in the genre chapter and across the book, is that idea – I've always been very interested in where great songs come from and what they inspire later. So that idea of doing a podcast that was a bit of a... like, yes, one song is the focus of each episode, but it's that kind of lineage of, "well, this is what this particular type of, you know, this is what Australian disco music looked like. This is what the Bee Gees sounded like when they were Beatles ripoffs; and this is what they went into in the seventies when they became the kings of disco; and this is what Australian disco music kind of looks like now; and this is how, you know, the Bee Gees inspired Tame Impala or whatever." 

That has always struck me as an interesting way to view music and particularly to view Australian music because there is so much Australian music that goes underappreciated or gets forgotten about and it's, I just find it interesting to make those connections and see, you know, where stuff came from. Early on in the podcast, I was connecting it to some international stuff as well, but I stopped doing that because I actually think there's so much Australian music that is worth exploring that I just wanted to focus it down locally. 

Cara
That's great! Yeah, definitely suggest listeners check it out. I've been enjoying singing along to the episodes in my car because unlike My Kind of Scene where we just play snippets of the songs, you play the entire song, so you can really belt out those Chrissy Amphlett moments, or Missy Higgins. I'm curious, what's the most interesting thing you've learned along the way doing that, podcast and pulling together those histories?

Tom

I, I discovered Regurgitator's kids' band through that show. So, I did an episode on, on "Exclamation Mark (!)" by Regurgitator, "! (The Song Formerly Known As)" – Regurgitator] and then after The Wiggles won the Hottest 100, I decided to do an episode on... I think I did it on "Fruit Salad," as the episode. And so I was looking for Australian kids' music and what's kind of come out in the last few years, because my son was quite young when I made that episode, he would have been like 2, so he wasn't really exploring beyond sort of The Wiggles and nursery rhymes at that time, and I found the, the Regurgitator kids' show, which has a really long title and I can't remember it right now, but that was, that was quite good to listen to their kids' albums and to see that they've had this sort of second life as a kids band, you know, and now they're out touring again as Regurgitator and playing Unit all the way through and, you know, doing all this great stuff, but they have been a kid's band and that was really, that was really interesting to see.

Cara

Yeah. It's, it's a beautiful time to be my age where all the bands are doing their 20- or 25-year heritage tours. 

Tom

They are! Yeah.  

Music and comedy make great bedfellows   01:09:56

Cara
As well as being a podcaster and a published author, obviously your day job, I guess, is, standup comedy. So, I'm curious how you think music and comedy are kind of connected, at least in your life and work or just, or in general across the Australian landscape. 

["Carol Brown" – Flight of the Conchords]

Tom

I have a theory that every stand-up comedian wishes they were a rock star. That's certainly true for me. If I had more musical talent, I would not be doing stand-up.

But, I mean, there's just, yeah, there's something about being on stage and entertaining people that I think is, is universal across those sort of jobs. You know, it's interesting in Australia, we've got such a small market for that stuff, so you've got to experiment a bit more. And so I think you see, you know, a lot of interesting stuff come out of that.

And there certainly has been... as we said, we're a country that loves funny music... so I think there is certainly a lot of crossover between the people who go out and see live music and people who want to go out and see live comedy. You know, and we saw it during COVID, just how much the country missed it, I think.

And when we opened up again, you know, it was really slow. Comedy, comedy took a really long time to come back. And I think music did too, really. Like, it came back fast, but really for like gigs to get going and stuff again, you know, you felt like crowds were smaller and they weren't as energetic and they were nervous and the artists weren't quite sure what to do.

And that was true for, for comics as well. You know, you're doing shows, you don't know how close, you know, you can get to people. Do people want to be engaged with, they've been inside for so long. So, it's really great now that everything is back and everything feels as close to normal as it can be again.

Because you can feel that there is that, that energy in these rooms again, both, you know, when you go to gigs and when you're performing gigs which is great, you know, because there is... I think Australian crowds really try to bring their whole selves to shows and that's a really fun thing. 

2023 Hottest 100 predictions   01:13:07

Cara
Well, that's a beautiful note to end on. Just one last quick question before I let you go. Any hot tips on this year's Hottest 100? 

Tom

Oh, I, I honestly, I have no idea. I have, I have been listening to a lot of music this year, but I have not been turning my same sort of analytical mind to it, as far as I'm concerned, I've handed in my gun and badge as a, a Hottest 100 Chronicler. My, my hope is that this is the year G Flip finally wins. I, I would love to see "Good Enough" ["Good Enough" – G Flip] win, that's one of my favourite songs of the year, I think that whole album was phenomenal: musically brilliant, super listenable, but also really vulnerable. "Good Enough" is a banger, so, I have no idea if that will be the case, but I hope. That's my pick. 

Cara

It's a good prediction. Well, Tom Clark, it's been so delightful having you on My Kind of Scene today. Thank you so much for chatting with us about your book. Do you want to tell us again what the title is and where we can find it? 

Tom

Shoulda Been Higher: A Celebration of 30 Years of Triple J's Hottest 100.

It is available in most bookstores around the country, but you can also go to my website, www.tomwclarke.com, and if you order it through there, uh, you probably get yourself a signed copy with a personalized message. So, that is probably the easiest place to go. 

Cara

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Have a great day and I really appreciate it. We'll talk to you again soon. 

Tom

Thanks so much for having me. 

Outro   01:16:13
["My Kind of Pod Theme" – Cara Diaria]

Cara

That's all for today – thanks for listening to My Kind of Scene. I hope you enjoyed my chat with comedian and music writer Tom W. Clark. Don't forget to check out his book Shoulda Been Higher, and keep an eye out for Tom on the stand-up circuit. And I hope all your favourite songs made it into this year's Hottest 100!

Do you have an idea for a topic to dig into on a future episode? Send me an email at mykindofscenepod[at]gmail.com.

This episode was written, recorded and produced by Cara Diaria. Theme music by Cara Diaria. 

All the songs we played, with a few obvious exceptions, were included in a Hottest 100 countdown. You can find a link to Spotify and YouTube playlists of the songs in the episode description, along with source links.

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us, and tell your friends.